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< Less known Solaris features: About crashes and cores - Appendix B: ::status | links for 2008-10-20 >
Is the Linux community afraid of Opensolaris?Sunday, October 19. 2008Comments
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Please consider making a branded zone that looks and feels just like a Linux (LSB). This way I don't care about learning Solaris differences - I just get my nice GNU userland and it all works.
Hmm, the some of the differences are based on the technology. For example: SMF ... falling back to the init.d concept will hide the advantages from you.
The idea of a LSB-alike Solaris brand looks a little bit frankensteinian to me. In the case, you just want the kernel features the lx or the lx64 (in development by the community) may be an solution.
Jörg,
Suns market is the top100-customers. Datacenters that are are not only listening to hypes do not deploy Linux for mission-critical applications, no one is doing that who wants to make money at the end. In current economic situation, companies will understand that Linux is far more cost-intensive as Solaris. Linux is a hype, like Windows was. Some had it on their home-pc and thought that could be deployed also in their datacenter. I can only tell: have fun and hope you all sleep well with such a decision. Frank
the real problem with Solaris was never the technology behind it. It was just not available (or lacked mainstream hardware support) in the good enough processor everyone used. Today's sysadmins are used to linux because it was free for everyone to learn with, and it was available in the said processor.
If solaris wants to make a real come back it needs to be back in universities around the globe, Sun also needs to provide cheap, really cheap solaris certifications.
@nacho: speaking of certifications for students at universities, schools, whatever.
Here's the holy grail for non profit customers: sailearningconnection.skillport.com It's the Sun Academic Initiative Program (http://www.sun.com/solutions/landing/industry/education/sai/index.xml) ... and certification is sponsored by Sun viz. 60US$ . G/ Frank
Hi,
Am both a linux user and a (minimal)solaris user. The answer to your question is that the Linux community is not afraid of Solaris/open Solaris. The only problem that atleast I have is that since the community is mainly under the control of Sun(For eg. most members of ug-bosug are Sun employees) and since there are still "closed" parts in Solaris, there is a fear with in me that at some point Sun might "close" all its code, having gained enough from the community. And on the sidelines,a suggestion. There is a definite need for improvement of the installer. I find the ncurses based installer of the old Debian Sarge simpler and easier to use than the OpenSolaris 2008.05 installer. PS. I dont understand the language of the text of the command buttons in the "post comment" part
We will not close Opensolaris again. Period. The only reason, why there are closed parts in Opensolaris is the fact, that we are not allowed to distribute some code as open-source because of 3rd-party-licenses of technology we´ve included into Solaris (for example: certain drivers).
You're fighting windmills, Jörg. There is no controversy, except the one perceived by those who write articles about it.
Actually, a good number of Linux sysadmins, developers, and enthusiasts whom I know regularly tell me "Linux has systemTap, wait till brtfs comes out, Linux has more drivers, etc". They forget that they know that I am their Linux sysadmin, and start talking about what Linux has (or will have).
Most people forget that they themselves don't really use the Linux kernel, they just use the GNU userland, perhaps the Gnu toolchain, and one of XFCE/Gnome/KDE - all of which are available on *BSD and opensolaris as well. There are definitely somethings about opensolaris that need looking into without prejudice, and some of these thing will be of benefit to various people.
Correct. And the same can be said about countless Solaris, "Windows", FreeBSD, Tru64, AIX, VMS or z/OS users. The choice of operating system is commonly driven not only by facts and experience, but also by myths and prejudice.
>When did you heard the last comment like "The BSD community should give up it´s niche operating system and help us with Linux!"
They just say it a bit different: "*BSD is dead" - that's a running gag in the community for a decade now but never got true. At least FreeBSD is very active and already has integrated ZFS, DTrace and Xen is on the way so i really wouldn't call that dead.
Its fine for Solaris to be recognized. No Linux fan should fear Solaris, they should fear Windows 2008 Server, since this system will get a lot more press coverage.
What I have learnt: A system unknown to the customer cannot be sold !! So Solaris is on the way to gain back strength, which is god to see. For linux its good to look across the garden fence, since you get a bit funny, if you are alone in your front garden for a long time.
Thanks for a great article on solaris. I am a Linux Sysadmin by choice and Solaris sysadmin out of necessity.
Sriram Narayanan [1] said it pretty much just the way I would however, I prefer Linux. Why? The FHS (File Heirarchy Standard) makes things a bit more sane and normalized when you are looking for something. Why is there a need for /usr/ucb/bin when there is /usr/bin? Why /usr/gnu/bin when there is /usr/bin? Why in the heck are there binaries in /etc? Ok they are links, but still wtf? These things matter for a day to day sysadmin. Yes you can argue that HP-UX or AIX have binaries or links in /etc. That doesn't make it right. Why are tools like truss and lsof not installed by default? Why does jumpstarting take AGES when a kickstart and full install takes ~5-6 minutes over a lan. Why does the package manager take ages to patch every single package? These are all very relevant questions and (frankly) areas that Solaris fails in comparison with a modern Linux distribution. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ian Murdock and the rest of the sun engineers come up with for Project Indiana, but it isn't there yet. DTrace is REALLY cool and one of the things that sets Solaris apart. ZFS is overkill for many situations and (scary as it may seem) I've seen XFS volumes of ~10TB or more used in production and the admins not minding it too much. Once btrfs comes out with it's inplace ext3 convertor moving over will be a no brainer. So as a Linux admin or business owner, what real reasons are there to move from Linux to Solaris? It seems like a lot more of the younger generation know Linux vs Solaris so hiring new admins will certainly be a factor. [1] http://www.c0t0d0s0.eu/archives/4943-Is-the-Linux-community-afraid-of-Opensolaris.html#c206932
> Why is there a need for /usr/ucb/bin when there is /usr/bin?
because there was life prior Linux and still is beyond Linux my friend from days some may not even know, when UNIX was born see filesystem(5) man page: /usr/ucb Berkeley compatibility package binaries. /usr/ucbinclude Berkeley compatibility package headers. /usr/ucblib Berkeley compatibility package libraries. > Why /usr/gnu/bin when there is /usr/bin because GNU is not UNIX, and a Solaris box by default out of the box, with the default shell, path and binaries has to be complient to various standards, in particular the SUS/SVID, see standards(5) man page for more in order to get the UNIX branding. I'm not sure if there is a Linux distro that has the UNIX branding. ( http://www.unix.org/version3/apis.html ( http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix.html ( http://www.opengroup.org/platform/unix_certification/ ( http://www.unix.org/unix98.html however it appears that the particular /usr/gnu part is going to change as part of the indiana based opensolaris distros, e.g opensolaris 2008.05/.11 > Why are tools like truss and lsof not installed by default? truss(1) ??? its there, has been there since ever /bin/truss lsof ? because in the past it seemed thath the proc(1) utilities do provide all of the same functionality but better integrated with Solaris. yes, patching/package managment will change with Opensolaris and IPS in the future and will obsolete the old SYSV package system. > there binaries in /etc? Ok they are links, but still wtf? because instead of other operating systems, solaris is comitted for compatibility with previous versions of solaris, and there was a time in the past those binaries lived in /etc. but wtf? about compatibility right ? I was thinking a long time about submitting a reply or not to this, frankly because opinions and discussions raised in that way can not be dealed with in a reasonable way and are most of the time a dead end... e.g. if that statement: >These things matter for a day to day sysadmin. would have been true, you'd know about the UCB compat package...since you don't you just don't need it and won't see it having any influence in your work....
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I wasn't trying to troll you btw.
While not meaning to sound ignorant to Solaris, that post was more to point out how annoying it is sometimes when some of these things are MUCH easier on Linux. There are what, 4 or 5 different places to change the hostname in Solaris 10? To the beginning of time backwards compatibility is very cool, but is also a double edged sword. Also, you didn't say anything about Jumpstarts. Are they going to be reasonable like say a Kickstart and take < 10 minutes? The technology in Solaris is really good and competition is always good in open source. It just seems like Jon Schwartz became CEO and started changing Sun after linux hit real mainstream (aka too late). That being said, I'd rather run big oracle databases on Solaris over Linux. Solaris's threading implementation seems more solid.
> There are what, 4 or 5 different places to change the hostname in
> Solaris 10? indeed, that and other sometimes minor but for an admin important quirks and details are somewhat rotten.... > Also, you didn't say anything about Jumpstarts. indeed - because like you I have yet to see what they come up with with regard to IPS managed systems. I'm somewhat used to jumpstart, I'd totally miss it. as for todays jumpstart behavoir I doubt there will be much of a change in terms of speedup unless you change your network itself, that is we just suck the entire OS and all the packages OTW from the install server, there's not much room for improvement in the old aside bumping up network bandwith. > backwards compatibility is very cool, but is also a double edged > sword. yes, and opensolaris 2008.05 started to relax on this front, ie. it contains /usr/gnu/bin as the first item in the default path afai remember from my laptop
Cool, a guy I know just got a job working for Sun specifically to improve the desktop and linux class hardware support. He is a kernel engineer in El Segundo, CA not far from here.
Great article, I simply wisely avoid discussing solaris with linux gurus.
The target is those who don't know much about solaris. and to keep the existing users. Also porting BSD or GPL software to solaris is a topic, which can be solved by running some kind of virtualisation. Virtual box, zones and containers are useful enhancements. Sun Studio is a very good compiler and the documentation plus blogs about solaris is another factor. Ideally Open Solaris should be able to also run on an IBM Cell processor. Portability and HCL hardware compatibility List cannot be neglected. Today the fastest supercomputer runs fedora Linux on AMD Opteron and IBM Cell. There I'd like to see opensolaris.
I'm a Linux sys-admin by day and I truly believe it's a fantastic operating system that is capable of great things but I also agree that it has it's limitations and I think that's what will hold it back from being a serious data center operating system.
If I was running a multi-million dollar corporation, with mission critical systems and the need for constant uptime and unbelievable response times - I would use Solaris. Sun Solaris is amazing at what it does. It's fast, slick and elegant.
Although this article was probably as vague as the perception that the linux community is afraid of a percieved success of opensolaris, I'd like to comment:
Customers made us switch from SPARC-based platforms to x86 and x86_64 platforms in many areas. There are various reasons for that, which I don't want to discuss here. Except one: Sun is still not able - although opensolaris and project indiana are around for quite a long time now - to deliver a state-of-the-art installation experience. This has long been an issue regarding Linux acceptance (which I have denied for a long time). An the same goes for opensolaris. You just won't see Joe Developer setting up opensolaris in his VirtualBox- oder kvm-guest for a quick test. He obviously will install Debian- oder Ubuntu-Linux, because he will be testing whereas he would be installing when he used opensolaris (and even if he would punish himself and install opensolaris he would probably be left with a non-useable system - in the sense of useability - as he would have to add libraries, add-ons and so forth by hand, because they would be most probably missing from the repositories). And this is how these decisions are made. It is very difficult to get opensolaris as the production system when it has to compete with Debian on the development system. It's not Solaris-Kernel vs. Linux-Kernel - its opensolaris vs. very good maintained Linux-distributions. Regarding that, opensolaris is more like a *BSD (evolving slow and steady). Although everyone here want's to see it as a Linux distribution (evolving with new Kernel releases) and growing a big community (which probably won't happen for other reasons).
Actually I think installation of solaris is much more elegant than on Linux. Besides that, an installation is typically only made once.
Agreed, if you want to manually tune the software packages some of the old weaknesses of the Solaris installer shows. But then, if so much installation is needed, an admin would make an installation profile once and would then roll out this installation on as many servers he likes. No need to bother the installer at all. The installer of the Indiana aka Opensolaris distribution looked like an Ubuntu or SuSE installer, perhaps not that polished, but it will evolve (just a few years back, Linux installation wasn't for the faint at heart, either). I won't comment on the idea that developers develop on self-installed operation systems that are a) beta and b)usually don't have anything to to with the production environment their software is supposed to run on.
I call BS!
OK, ZFS and Dtrace = NICE. But a modern Linux distro can do so many things OpenSolaris just can't it is not even funny anymore. I won't even mention smaller or bigger machines. Solaris on cell phones anyone? Or on Petaflop machines?
Linux doesn´t run on Petaflop systems. It doesn´t even run on Teraflop systems. It runs on cluster of smaller systems with an aggregated computing power of those numbers.
And i don´t think that "reducing" is a technology breakthrough. Essentially an Linux on a MobilePhone is just a custom build kernel with some custom drivers in conjunction with busybox. There is nothing that makes Linux special here. And don´t mix Linux and Linux Distributions. Given the existence of drivers, there is nothing you can´t do on Solaris as well. And that´s the basic point: If the existence ports is the important fact, look no further than NetBSD ... more ports than Linux. If you want drivers for any existent hardware on the planet ... well there is an operating environment from Redmond ... but you have to pay for it ...
>It doesn´t even run on Teraflop systems.
Columbia does 51.87 teraflops with SLES9.
At first it´s a cluster of Altixes "It is composed of twenty SGI Altix 3000 nodes each of which have 512 Intel Itanium 2 processors bringing the total number of processors to 10,240." and additionally the Altix is a special case. Without SGI ProPack you won´t reach this number per node.
But the nice thing about the Altix is that you get a single image, not a cluster. At least every node does 2tf.
Well that´s correct ... but you get this single image with the performance characteristics of a cluster ...
I don't want to start a flameware snicker but I'm happy to see some alternatives, *BSD, Linux, OpenSolaris etc. pp. There is no "one to rule them all", that's mere nonsense. Of course I do have some preferences, but I don't want to banish any of the other operating systems. The more people you have working with different methods, the more versatility you'll get.
It's true Linux lacks some very important enterprise features. But its false that Solaris has everything Linux wants to have.
We migrated to QFS/SAM-FS on Solaris 10 with more than 50 million files and we used Linux before with simple and cheap RAID. Now guess want stands in the corner, unusable at load level 1.17 and which oldies are still going to serve our needs at load level 10+ on "inferior" hardware? Solaris was setup and hardened by "experts", the running Debian has a lot of misconfiguration form my precedessor and wasn't tuned in any way. It only needs nmap to tell you which of the boxes is safer -- its not the "hardened" Solaris. I like Debian -- albeit it lacks a lot of enterprise features I really want in the future. I wasn't afraid, but I'm afraid I have to say: Solaris doesn't rock! Next time: no Solaris, no ZFS, no SAM-FS and I never cared about Dtrace anyway. Solaris is about old men talking about Unix and myths. Nothing more.
I know I should not reply to such an article but I'm in the mood today...
Your point is? Are you complaining that you don't know Solaris or SAM-FS for that matter? If you're more familiar with Linux then why don't you just install SAM-FS on Linux? If a solution (be it SAM-FS on Solaris or MySQL on Linux, or MSSQL on Win2003) is badly setup and not maintained by the admins, then it will be insure. If the environment is badly designed then it is perfecly possible that the users become frustrated -- perhaps the simple, cheap solutions would have been better. But don't blame SUN or Solaris or SAM-FS if either the design or the maintenance is bad. Blame yourself for not stating your needs, blame the project manager for not listening to you or your users or the purchasing department for hiring the cheapest solution provider they could find. Regardless of the operating system used if you put important data on cheap (perhaps even sata) RAIDs (how is backup handled?) you should get your head examined.
I understand and agree with your points, but your atrocious misuse of punctuation made it difficult to read.
Please read Eats, Shoots & Leaves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats_shoots_and_leaves to get a full appreciation for this. Why is it that we, as engineers and computer scientists, somehow consider English grammar to be optional? Good grammar is certainly not a matter of choice in C++ and Java. We embarrass ourselves when we forget this. Thank you for your article. It is certainly time that the more fundamentalist segments of the Linux community recognized the stupidity and self-destructiveness of attacking other compelling UNIX implementations.
To me it looks like Solaris is attacking Linux (and IBM) in this blog. Personally I only read about "Linux attacking Solaris" on Solaris sites... strange.
Suggestion: just all quit fingerpointing. Gruss Bernd BTW: and skip the fingerpointin g on grammar and spelling as well, please
Sorry, but my native language is german, not english. But i do my very best to express my thoughts in a language readable throughout the world in IT (especially in a business, where every second word is english in any language)
> Why is it that we, as engineers and computer scientists,
> somehow consider English grammar to be optional? Good > grammar is certainly not a matter of choice in C++ and Java. > We embarrass ourselves when we forget this. certainly correct and a nice candy ontop of it.. however if you had written this in perfect german grammar that would have been really impressing ! c'mon, just give it a try....
Nice book !
We have these language enthusiasts in germany too. I understand them, i like to read well written things and i try to evangelize some times too, but in a time where you get funny looks for not understanding "lol", "r" and "4" in written languages immediately, punctuation is "auf verlorenem Posten". (at losing)
It's a little rude to be criticizing the author's grammar Alain when you can't take 5 seconds to notice all the (what I assume is) German on the site.
Perhaps English is not our author's native tongue?
Thank you for a great article. While reading it the following phrase i read some where came to mind:
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win. This is how I feel about OpenSolaris. I also greatly recognized the statement about Solaris having been designed, instead of simply evolving over time, like Linux does.
So when will Sun support the OpenSSH developement? "In fact, no Commercial Unix or Linux vendor has ever given our project a cent."
I have a three disk Intel 64 system, on which I evaluate or maintain several operating systems. (linux and windows). I would install Open Solaris, except that from any one linux system, I have access to the files on all the others. I would want a linux driver so I can read zfs files. When that occurs, Solaris will be one that I take a serious look at.
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Jörg hat eine Wortwüste über Is the Linux community afraid of Opensolaris? geschrieben. Mein initialer Gedanke war ein schlichtes Nö, wie schön das Martin sich besser Ausdrücken kann und die richtigen Worte gefunden hat: ...
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